Is Microsoft Capable of Honesty?

The following is taken from slashdot.

DaveM writes "Bush's most recent Supreme Court nominee, Harriet Miers, successfully argued that people who were sold defective software by Microsoft weren't "injured," and couldn't participate in a class action against the company. The case involved unstable compression features in MS DOS 6.0, which were corrected by a $9.95 update, MS DOS 6.2. Plaintiffs wanted Microsoft to offer the updates for free, but eventually lost to Miers' arguments."

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the people that piss you off. And supa-fly koncas has some fries if you want some! (No ideal what he might have done with them though :)

usa, I ran it for a region. Do the same search with .net for the whole USA and you'll probably get back 10's of thousands of hits.

Anyway guys, again it was a good conversation and I must say you guys seem to know the business very well. Just remember it is an ever changing business, todays leader might be tomorrow's follower. The pro I see in moving away from microsoft is that not everybody and their mom will be able to program, we won't have these business majors deciding to pick up programming and implementing Data Structures.

I do it for the money if I could make enough money and open a resort in the caribbean (not restricting my opions to belize)I will be one happy man. I am sure I can find a good deal in the lesser antilles on a beach front commercial property. Grenada is in a state after the 2 hurricanes, maybe I can find a good deal there. St. Vincent still has a lot of room for development, maybe I can look there.

When we state facts and give figures to prove it. You spout dogma and when you give "facts" we prove they are inaccurate. Okay Pfizer Pharmachutical, does not us .net, the US goverment does not use .net, google does not use .net, ebay does not use .net IBM does not use .net Lockhead Martin does not use .net Those are some pretty big compaines and they all use C++, Apache, Linux, Perl. Iv'e worked for all of those compaianes either as a employee or as a trouble shooter usealy brought in to fix M$ crap that was costing the comppaines milloions in down time etc... So I'm speaking from experience. If you are talking about Belize sure there is more work with .net and vb but if you want to make real money in the States you will be much better off being a skilled Unix / Linux programer or admin than you ever will as a M$ programer or admin.

Also like i said you can trun out stuff quick useing M$ products thats why alot of small sites use it, Bigger sites or sites which deal in huge volume of hits use Apache simple because it's cheaper and more reliable and scales better yes you have to be a little more technical inclined to use it but it's just plain better in that situation. Yes I know microsoft site gets tons of hits but then they don't have to pay the licenseing fee for all those servers they have to use to support the amount of hits they get. Though I've been out the biz for a while I still have a lot of contacts stateside who are still in and according to them .net just don't cut it. What are you useing it for that you can't do with other languages?

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the people that piss you off. And supa-fly koncas has some fries if you want some! (No ideal what he might have done with them though :)

Hey, I did same search you did and found more Qt jobs in the same pages you gave me. Links here:

hotjobs

careerbuilder

monster.com

Like I said, Qt is used in specialized environments or for in house development where the company has its own IT development staff. You can make money in almost any way possible and you do not need to get married to M$ to make money. I, for one, if you want a system from me, I will always try to use something I am comfortable with and .net and Visual Basic is not one of them. In fact I used Qt for a small system once and the client did not even know it was Qt. So it really depends on how you want to make money. I have my own private business on the side that I use to make a little money and I have never had the need to resort to .net nor Visual Basic. In fact, never did the customer require that I use those. And in my work, I have total autonomy as to what programming language to use for the in-house systems. I have used java and php mostly (despite my adoration for Qt).

So, I will try to summarize this discussion. Yes, we try to make money from building software and we use what we have available. However, the fact that M$ is the most proliferated virus, I mean OS, does not mean that it is the healthiest OS out there and that we are shackled to MS centric in order to make some cash. It doesn't mean other OS's like linux and BSD are any lesser if they are not as common as MS to your everyday user. It has been a nice discussion guys, hope we have more discussions like this.

and i'm guilty of using terms loosely. Again, let me state this though, in my personal situation, developing using M$ development products/languages has turned out to be much more profitable and has turned out to be the smartest business choice i ever made. I can only speak for my personal situation and i'm sure you're happy with your choices too.

you guys really hate Bill. Grep, I said to myself: "self maybe I am just caught up in this microsoft world of mine and big things a gwan around me and I am missing out", so I went to www.careerbuilder.com, www'hotjobs.com, www.monster.com and I did a search on QT. Guess what? 2 jobs came back.

I don't know what to say, you just hate Bill, all I want to do is make money and if Bill and I can accomplish this then i'll be happy.

Of course, there it can not be used for all applications. If you are designing a system to track and monitor hurricanes, you would not use php/mysql. I personally would use C++ or Qt(which is C++ also) and postgresql as my database. If I am building a system that a company will use to take orders over the net, I would definetely not use C++ and worse Visual Basic(yuck).

The programming language depends on the system you are building. Each language has its own use. Of course, if you are going to build microchips, you wouldn't use C# nor java. I have seen some java apps that you wouldn't believe were programmed in Java. It all depends on the programmer. The common notion that java is slow is totally false. Those programmers simply do not know how to programme in java. I got some tips from the book Lighter and Better Java and from Efficient Java. In my opinion, Qt is much better than Java and C#. It is not as widespread because it has seemed to find its niche in scientific environments and private companies that do in-house development. But I would rather pay for Qt than .Net. (It is multiplatform too, something that .Net isn't).

... it's all about making money. Sorry fenp, grep ... php/mysql just is not as a profitable a development environment as .net/m$. It just is not good business sense for any developer to stay on the php/mysql course.

I agree that you might find the bigger sites running apache, but I also know that alot of small to medium shops are running IIS as the webserver. A lot of .net development and integration with the .net framework has forced this, because your applications integrates smoother when you use IIS and that goes for any .net techonology. When it comes to software development you can't deny that .net suite has the competition beat. I remember the java hype don't get me wrong, java was nice but unfortunately Microsoft has a better buisiness model than Sun. Right now in the programming world its all about .net. At the end of the day Bill will be around, so hey lets make some money.

Pcworld artical says Linux TCO is lower

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the people that piss you off. And supa-fly koncas has some fries if you want some! (No ideal what he might have done with them though :)

Another artical from the site you posted

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the people that piss you off. And supa-fly koncas has some fries if you want some! (No ideal what he might have done with them though :)

You said no one uses Apache / PHP so I post a graph showing the break down and Apache / PHP had 70% market share.

Score 1 for linux 0 of Microsoft.

You said no big busniess uses Apach / PHP and a I responded by saying name a big business that uses IIS you said Ebay so I posted the ebay link where they say they use Apache.

Score 2 for linux 0 of Microsoft.

You posted a link to a site that said TCO of M$ was lower than Linux I posted the oppisite. No change of score on this one there are plenty of M$ sponsered studies out there to spout out what they are told to and just as many sites that don't get money from M$ who say the oppisit so the score stands at.

Score 2 for linux 0 of Microsoft

I guess you lost your Case Doggy.

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the people that piss you off. And supa-fly koncas has some fries if you want some! (No ideal what he might have done with them though :)

Ain't it the sad truth. On the DSL thing if yout talk to the installer he or she will flat out tell you your arent' suppose to change / alter the modeme config. Hmm so I'm suppose to allow a company to put a device on my netowork without me knowing how it's configerd?

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the people that piss you off. And supa-fly koncas has some fries if you want some! (No ideal what he might have done with them though :)

Microsoft slammed over misleading Windows Linux claims

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the people that piss you off. And supa-fly koncas has some fries if you want some! (No ideal what he might have done with them though :)

The bottom line for M$ users is user-friendly. The main argument in the article quoted by doggy is precisely that. I would not say Linux is not user friendly. It is. The problem is that Windows has propagated an "unhealthy" computer practice culture. People do crap with their computers and and it is because they do not take the time to read. Funny how with the advent of computers people have stopped reading. If a pop-up appears with some strange message, more than likely, windows user will press "OK" and have a jolly nice programme creep up through their computer. That is what many refer to as user friendly nowadays - letting any programme do anything. In a working environment, their is no need for a user to have privileges to install any programme in their computer, so it is wise to limit their permissions. However, only recently I have seen these things happenning in windows networks. As a matter of fact, I went to government department the other day that uses windows xp in their network and have btl dsl. Surprising enough, they had not changed the password for their dsl modem nor their router. I am not saying all windows users are dumb. Just that most don't care to inform themselves. In stark contrast, as soon as you start using a Unix system, the first thing they tell you is: DO NOT USE ROOT. And the rest of the good computer practices root out from there.

Like I said name a big company that uses it other than micrsoft. I can send you hundreds of links to sites that say the oppiste.

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the people that piss you off. And supa-fly koncas has some fries if you want some! (No ideal what he might have done with them though :)

"This competition is more an emotionally driven reaction against Microsoft than a factual case for Linux," wrote Kevin McIsaac of Meta Group. "The Linux OS license is free, but that does not ensure that total cost of ownership will be reduced."

http://www.crmbuyer.com/story/31606.html

You need to learn how to load balance and a little about redundancey and fault tolerence. Your just asking for trouble.

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the people that piss you off. And supa-fly koncas has some fries if you want some! (No ideal what he might have done with them though :)

... you may have a point there. One iis server i have a project running on, chokes at about 70 million page views per month. I don't have the exact concurrent usage, but it's fair to say that this particular application which is data intensive cannot scale past 70 million page views per month. I can't say if apache/php would have been able to handle that load.

I guess i made a boo boo on the ebay thing, they were running windows at some point though, weren't they?

1and1 internet = a web hoster who does both linux and M$.

interland = ditto same thing

datapipe = ditto same thing

These aren't big compaines either hell most hosters offer both platforms. So in summary you listed one actual business other than hosters and you where wrong on that one.

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the people that piss you off. And supa-fly koncas has some fries if you want some! (No ideal what he might have done with them though :)

datapipe
interland
1and1 internet

anyway, this is way off topic as i was talking about good business sense. Let me state again ... "lamp" made me little money ... IIS/asp/.net made me big money. The choice is easy. Don't get me wrong, i can work in any environment, it just happens that one increases the bank account and the other one doesn't

Ebay uses sun servers which don't run IIS , they run Apache and java

Ebays sunsite tells you all about it.

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the people that piss you off. And supa-fly koncas has some fries if you want some! (No ideal what he might have done with
them though :)

ebay uses M$

And don't inculde hardware makers as they are squezzed into it by questionalble biz practices by M$.

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the people that piss you off. And supa-fly koncas has some fries if you want some! (No ideal what he might have done with them though :)

If only 1% of em are money makers then it's more than IIS, most IIS is small personal sites or small busness, Cause admitedly IIS is easier to setup and design for it just doesn't scale very well and if your a big biz then it's Apache all the way baby cause it scales and is alot cheaper than the per server licenseing M$ demands.

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the people that piss you off. And supa-fly koncas has some fries if you want some! (No ideal what he might have done with them though :)

This site as a list of a few.

Some pretty big names on the list by the way. Also several National goverments have made the switch no just servers but even the desktop level. I also think you should do some reading on the next versions of windows and some of the comments being made in trade magizines about the licensing agreement.

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the people that piss you off. And supa-fly koncas has some fries if you want some! (No ideal what he might have done with them though :)

... that my point is about what is good business sense. Certainly not all sites on apache are money earners. I wish there was a graph that proves that developing for M$ is more profitable. Anyway, i can only be adamant about what has worked for me.

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the people that piss you off. And supa-fly koncas has some fries if you want some! (No ideal what he might have done with them though :)

... show me a graph of what enterprises are running.

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the people that piss you off. And supa-fly koncas has some fries if you want some! (No ideal what he might have done with them though :)

Cause IIS market is not that strong, if you take a look at the chart below from netcraft.

I think it makes my point for me.
When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the people that piss you off. And supa-fly koncas has some fries if you want some! (No ideal what he might have done with them though :)

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the people that piss you off. And supa-fly koncas has some fries if you want some! (No ideal what he might have done with them though :)

... i'm talking about using business smarts.

... i'm arguing about good business sense. Linux/apache is not as good business sense like IIS/windows

... i'm not talking out of my ass here. As a developer, i started out in love with open source ... customizing, contributing and really making little money. I soon learnt that wasn't very profitable. Move to developing primarily for Windows and boom ... money in the bank. Sometimes you have to think with your brain rather than your emotions.

Lost case in states, lost case in Eruope, tons of suits against them now includeing a RICO case. Don't get me wrong I use M$, to play games all it's really worth.

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the people that piss you off. And supa-fly koncas has some fries if you want some! (No ideal what he might have done with them though :)

Apache on linux is the number one server on the market, heck this site uses it for example. What do you think google, Slashdot etc runs on? If you are insinuating that IIS is a a good webserver you need to do some reading.

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the people that piss you off. And supa-fly koncas has some fries if you want some! (No ideal what he might have done with them though :)

FTP should never be used major security issue.

Instant Messenger unsecure anyone can intercept your messages use skype for the next few months then you'll have to swithch cause ebay bought em and as a US company must put in backdoor by law.

Windows Media, well why? large files horrible compresson lousy sound much better apps out there even for the windows platform.

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the people that piss you off. And supa-fly koncas has some fries if you want some! (No ideal what he might have done with them though :)

... but can you state that without a shadow of a doubt, you would not do what it takes (provided it's legal) to dominate your market?

You could use as much examples as you like (though the example with musa is irrelevant to this scenario), business is business and every one wants to succeed. If one has a choice of squashing the competition legally, then why not. Unfortunately for the M$ haters, Bill isn't going anywhere. Please read road fly's comment regarding accountability requirement of corporate america cause that my friend is a fact that can't be ignored. Linux will never capture that market and therefore you can deduce that no enterprise will ever choose Linux or open source for that matter over a M$ product.

I can also tell you that any developer who chooses to ignore developing for M$ platform and lets his emotions guide his decision to use say php/mysql exclusively is going to starve or is always going to get small low paying projects.

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the people that piss you off. And supa-fly koncas has some fries if you want some! (No ideal what he might have done with them though :)

what da hell are you talking about?

Thanks.

my boss is a very patient and understanding man.

he just explained the situation with the 2 and asked me to please be more careful in future.

I worked in the unix enviroment and I loved it, and yes it gives you so much more power than windows OS, but at the end of the day I still don't know why Academia hates Bill so much. Notice I classified the haters as academia because i am not sure what to call the rest, (open source community).

I love the support I get from microsoft, if I have a problem I head on over to www.msdn.microsoft.com and I get all my answers. If not I pick up the phone and give them a call, of course we have all our licenses.

On the flip side Bill Gates is one of the biggest Philanthropist out there. He contributes millions and millions of dollars to fight poverty.

He is a good business man and that is the key, corporate america wants to know that they can hold somebody responsible when things are not working, so far Microsoft has been willing to provide that service. Customizing applications to work for the field, for example there is a law version of word, Great Plains accounting system is highly customizable based on your field. Again this guy knows how to service the industry and extract money. The bundling of applications is bad for competition but great for users, we don't really care its free(i know nothing is free). Shit here are some of the bundled applications i am using:

Instant Messenger
FTP feature in IE
Windows Media
Notepad

See he makes it easy for the users that just wants to get on the computer and do whatever it is they need to do and get the hell off.

Well mabye not the cussing but in some jobs I've had you would have been fired.

But still it's not the same thing it's bordering on illegal what they do to some compaines I know of one company that got venture capital just to fight M$, they are sueing under the RICO act. (Ie. Criminal Conspeiracy)

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, pee in it, and serve it to the people that piss you off. And supa-fly koncas has some fries if you want some! (No ideal what he might have done with them though :)

ur right.

you've just won your case.

Yes, agreed, business is WAR, but just like there are regulations that govern the conduct of WAR, there also exist ethics in business. It sounds like you are also justifying Prosser, Ashcroft, Musa, Fonseca and all that crowd with your comments. Bottom line is, competition is good because it makes you get better and keeps you on your toes. But Mr Gates and Mr Ashcroft do not like comptetion, so they try to destroy whoever gives them a run for their money.

Your comment is just like saying that if we were Musa we would be fucking the entire country up the arse just like he is doing right now.